New FPS limit for full auto AEGs

[SKELETOR]

390 with .28. Perfect speed

[bb]

Cowpie, a average m130 spring with .28 bb's shoots between 390-400 fps.. 400 with .28's should be limit

[SKELETOR]

Once you try your gun with a 130 you never go back

[bb]

Make a DMR and bolt sniper vote box please

[Cowpie]

We will discuss this at a 2nd meeting this weekend after the game. Please attend if you wish to have a say in this important rule

[gambit]

I think 420 should limit full auto AEG's with .25's.

[GOOSE]

400 with .25. Keeps us competitive but safe

AOA

[Bushmaster]

390 with hard stop at 400 with .28

Sent from my SCH-I535 using proboards

[MacGruber]

There seems to be quite a bit to discuss and little data. Rather than a vote I would like to see a discussion. The FPS rule should be in line with our goals as a community and not a function of arbitrary parts. I think that there should be a strong correlation between FPS/MED. I also think we need to decide how we test to prevent FPS creep and to accurately measure the energy delivered at the point of impact.

Aligning the rule with data to meet our goal is the easy part. Deciding what our goal is may be the real discussion.

[bb]

This will be discussed Saturday after the game, all who are able to come please do, we will be structuring most the rules

[Myagi]

401 fps with .25
Anything faster than this and people will start getting hurt.
Imagine getting lit up at 20ft with 450-460 fps which would be a .20 @ .28/400fps limits.
If this is voted on and everybody wants faster limits, I think full face protection should become mandatory, especially for all players under 18. Also, if this becomes the new fps limit (400 with .28) I take back my vote for 20ft minimum and raise it to 30ft.

[Bushmaster]

I guess I need a reference point. What is the fps converted to .25?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using proboards

[wolfwood]

Take goose last week he got shoot at 25 to 30 feet away at 390 fps with .25 bbs and It Brock the skin on his face I say 400 with .25 any higher we need to change the feet of engagement more.

[MacGruber]

I hate to add math and science to the discussion, but the Minimum Engagement Distance, the FPS limit, and the BB weight all link together and should be taken as a whole. My assumption is that we want an FPS rule that provides three key points;

1) Safety for the community, our own and in respect to liability
2) A consistent and level playing field for everyone (everybody knows and abides by the rules)
3) Rules that make sense and fit within our community

That said, calculating the kinetic energy of a projectile is relatively simple but time consuming. I have seen several references to 1.3 joules being the necessary energy to break skin. I can't actually figure out how to calculate that without a live subject (any volunteers? JK). But if we used that as a basis to achieve our safety standard I could calculate out a reference for the BB weight and FPS and the distance from the muzzle when the KE is =/< 1.0joules (giving us a safety margin)

One thing to note is that BB weight is very important in the discussion because as M increases the projectile will be able to use more of the energy delivered by the gun and will dissipate that energy more slowly in flight. This becomes a serious issue when talking about DMR's and Bolt Action Snipers. For example;

our FPS rule for a sniper is 550FPS with a .25g BB which translates to 3.52 joules at the muzzle.
For a .43g BB that is 420FPS at the muzzle for the same energy in joules. Sounds like they are the same, right?

However, that .25g BB will be down to 1.0 joules in 70 feet while the .43g bb would not drop to that level until 115 feet. Under that it would still be delivering enough energy to break skin. At the proposed 50ft mark it would still be delivering close to 2.2 joules. For reference that is about the same energy as a .28g BB shooting at 410fps as it exits the muzzle.

If anyone disagrees with the assumptions or have suggestions to correct the safe impact energy I am open to that, but we should be comparing apples to apples where the BB hits the player.

[MacGruber]

This is a relative chart and is not gospel. We should decide our own rules. However, this can serve as a frame of reference for comparing relative impact energy across specific FPS/BB weight. This gives muzzle energy at the exit of the barrel and the distance it takes for that muzzle energy to drop to 1.0 joules. I limited the distance to 5 ft increments because I am lazy. I have no way of saying 1.0 joules is the correct number, we will have to decide that for ourselves and can adjust the table accordingly. I limited the table to just what I thought we were discussing for AEG's. Snipers/DMR's would need a different table relative to their BB weights.


Muzzle Energy joules/Distance in feet to 1.0joules
FPS 0.25g 0.28g 0.30g
350 1.42/20 1.59/30 1.70/35
360 1.51/25 1.69/35 1.81/40
370 1.53/25 1.78/35 1.91/45
380 1.68/30 1.88/40 2.01/50
390 1.77/35 1.98/45 2.12/50
400 1.86/35 2.08/45 2.23/55
410 1.95/40 2.19/45 2.34/55
420 2.05/40 2.29/50 2.46/60
430 2.15/45 2.41/55 2.58/60
440 2.25/45 2.52/55 2.70/65
450 2.35/45 2.64/60 2.82/65

Once again, they are our rules. WE make them, this is not meant to suggest the correct FPS. This is a tool to compare our choices with.

[SKELETOR]

Actually he was shooting 387 with .28s

[bb]

So everyone is aware. When we establish a DMR limit and minimum. Anyone within that gap, however big or small. Will have to have a gun only capable of semi fire only. That means everyone without a avocado unit or MOSFET unit, will have a nut super glued to select fire to disable you from going to full auto. Or you cannot use that weapon until you fix the fps. The nut can simply come off with a flat head and a little leverage. Anyone who tampers and removes the nut or goes full auto should be penalized in my opinion. But it's a voting matter and ill bring it to the table Saturday

[bb]

Note that the team meeting will be moved to before the game at 9 am Saturday this weekend

[MacGruber]

Here are some Rules from other groups. It would be great if you have other groups to add and we can use that as a basis for comparison. No matter what weight BB they used for chorono FPS limit everything below is normalized to a .2g BB for comparison. This is not a comprehensive list, but what I could grab off of the internet in the 15 minutes I had to do so. If you add to the list please either normalize to .3g BBs or state what weight they are using.

................................CQB FPS...CQB MED...AEG FPS...AEG MED...DMR FPS...DMR MED...BAS FPS...BAS MED
National Airsoft Association....340.......None......400.......None......450.......50ft......550.......100ft
Michigan Airsoft................340.......5ft.......400.......20ft......540.......50ft......540.......50ft
North Carolina Airsoft..........335.......None......447.......15ft......503.......50ft......560.......100ft
Pacific Airsoft.................300.......20ft......400.......20ft......475.......60ft......550.......100ft
Mount Doom......................330.......None......415.......30ft......475.......60ft......550.......60ft
South Carolina..................340.......None......400.......20ft......450.......50ft......600.......100ft
MAG - Boise.....................None......None......420.......20ft......None......None......600.......100ft
Pocatello.......................391.......30ft......447.......50ft......None......None......600.......100ft
Spokane.........................350.......10ft......400.......20ft......None......None......>400......50ft

[BIRD]

i personally would like to have higher fps limits, makes the game more intense, adrenaline filled, realistic. i wear a facemask and have pretty much all my of my body covered. players who roll out with little to no protection will have a different opinion... i say if you come out to play, come out to play hard.

but as a LT. colonel of AOA in the community i say we should keep the fps at 400 with .25g in a rough estimate, meaning if your a lil over the limit your ok.. but if your 10-20fps over the limit then changes will arise.
play with honor, integrity, and dont forget to watch out for bird shit

[SKELETOR]

I will still push for higher no matter what.
People that can't handle it shouldn't be playing.
I don't believe that the little fps rise is going to be really any more unsafe. The risk is from the players lack of safety not the gun.
Same as the whole gun ban crap.
The higher fps has to me more pros than cons. I know we won't get the higher fps but I'm not going to stop pushing it.
Kids under 16 should have a parent playing and or actually at the game no matter what. We could do a maturity assessment which may be a good idea.
I think also there should be a min even with parents. Maybe 14-12.

[BIRD]

Feb 28, 2013 13:57:33 GMT -7 SKELETOR said:

I will still push for higher no matter what.
People that can't handle it shouldn't be playing.
I don't believe that the little fps rise is going to be really any more unsafe. The risk is from the players lack of safety not the gun.
Same as the whole gun ban crap.
The higher fps has to me more pros than cons. I know we won't get the higher fps but I'm not going to stop pushing it.
Kids under 16 should have a parent playing and or actually at the game no matter what. We could do a maturity assessment which may be a good idea.
I think also there should be a min even with parents. Maybe 14-12.

i conqur skele, id like to push for higher fps. but then new players with average guns dont have a fair chance, but everybody had to start somewhere.. i started with a crappy ak47 with very low fps for months until i got my new upgraded weapon.. i think we just need to have a safe shooting distance and common courtesy using semi when engaged in cqb. maybe 30ft if we decide to do higher fps limits.
play with honor, integrity, and dont forget to watch out for bird shit

[wolfwood]

It would be nice to have the limit at 400 with .25 or 410 for the fact that there are a lot of kids playing out there and new players start to play and they can't even touch people with there guns becouse there way out shoot buy the other team it dos discouraged them about playing and some players have budgets so they can't afford the higher end guns.

[BIRD]

Feb 28, 2013 16:34:23 GMT -7 wolfwood said:

It would be nice to have the limit at 400 with .25 or 410 for the fact that there are a lot of kids playing out there and new players start to play and they can't even touch people with there guns becouse there way out shoot buy the other team it dos discouraged them about playing and some players have budgets so they can't afford the higher end guns.

thats what im thinkn too, we dont wanna discourage new players..

play with honor, integrity, and dont forget to watch out for bird shit

[wolfwood]

That we also need to look at the events around that we go to and try not to go now higher then that becouse then you would have to lower the fps to go

[priest]

Hey guys, this might help shed some light on different BB weights and springs.

asgcalc.hollved.com/index.php?page=&lang=1

There is actually around a 40-45fps variance between .20g and .25g BB's.

[SKELETOR]

the fairness is a good arguement but the fact that we want it similar as other events is not. if you can put a stronger spring in you can take it out. that is really just laziness.
and the thing that sucks is the 120 spring doesnt shoot hard enough. the 130 does shoot pretty damn hard. wish there was a 125 spring. that seems like its more of a compromise.

[SKELETOR]

a 130 cost 10-15$ so thats not off of anyones budget really

[SKELETOR]

also we need to stop chronoing with .25. If im chronoing im doing it with MY .28. not .25s.

[wolfwood]

If we measure with any waight of bb and it just have to be under the lemit of fps for .25 it shouldent be bad. I have upgraded my spring t the s120 from css and geting 290 fps with it if it was just uping the spring that would be nice but there is others things that's droping the fps on my gun and I know it would be up close to what I won't to be shooting at